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Dave S. Posted…

This news has caused me to become awfully pessimistic in a hurry. Just when I was starting to see the possibility that Microsoft's reluctance to develop IE any further would be a good thing for the development community, this has to go and happen. Worst case scenario? Who knows. I've had visions of AOL putting Netscape to bed once and for all, stopping any support for the Mozilla project, and pulling the plug on anything non-Microsoft. Of course, that's way too extreme because in reality they only have 7 years guaranteed. They'd have to start planning for the lapse in their free ride almost immediately, although a few years getting comfortable first isn't out of the question. Best case scenario? Microsoft lets IE slide and Mozilla and Opera get their feet in a door which Microsoft can't close. A three-way tie for top browser spot would be the best possible outcome of this. Standards support would have to be pushed to the forefront, and we'd all win. Either way, the relevance of the browser is at stake here. Maybe in 7 years we'll all be surfing the wireless web and the desktop browser will be a thing of the past. Then again, maybe we're going to be stuck with today's technology for the next decade.

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Anthony Baker Posted…

Have been troubled by this news as well, and then had a thought about it all. Given how the browser has become a commodity these days, we have -- in a sense, at least -- been freeloading on AOL/Netscape and Microsoft's good graces for a while anyhow. They've spent the money on browsers, give them away for free, and here we are. Other than Mozilla, development has generally slowed and here we are. If the browser is a commodity, I would think that how we're going to move forward -- really -- is through working together as a community to build our own. Again, Mozilla is a great example of this, and if AOL pulled the plug on it, someone (us) would have to step in to continue it, if we're to see innovation continue without having to be tied to an OS upgrade. We've already seen amazing development happen with open source communities supporting product development -- and/or partnering with companies. Mozilla is a great example, as is Movable Type and others. The time may soon be coming to pull up our collective sleeves and begin work. With all the talent that's available, the the interest of a collective bunch (again, us) I really don't think we have to fear Microsoft and AOL stepping out.

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Liorean Posted…

I doubt that this will mean that AOL drops Netscape and thereby mozilla.org, and even if they do, I don't think the linux companies, Sun or IBM would let mozilla.org suddenly stand there with a large lack in funding and paid contributors. They will step in as much as they can afford, so this will likely have little or no impact on mozilla.org. Another thing to note, is the recent release of MSN for Mac, which brings an undate to Internet Explorer for Mac, but only if you subscribe (and thereby pay them for the browser upgrade). Is this the way Internet Explorer (or whatever the name of the next browser from Microsoft, as it seems the name Internet Explorer is being phased away) will be taking in the future? If so, this deal allows AOL to use a browser that otherwise is provided only together wih a subscription with MSN.

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Paul Martin Posted…

I wish I could look forward to a future of competition between IE, Netscape/Mozilla and Opera. Unfortunately, my experience with naiive computer users tells me this isn't in the cards. It's those users (many of whom are still on Netscape 4) who ultimately limit the progress of the web. I have users of my web sites who are still using dial up access, who are using whatever browser came with their computer (or the initial install of their isp) who have no idea how to update their browsers, or why they would want to. Downloading a modern browser over a dialup connection can take hours, during which time the phone is unavailable for other uses. In the days when you bought your own browser for real money, at least you walked out of the store with a CD. Now, the only browser available on CD is AOL. If web authors are unhappy with IE 6, we have two choices. We can wait until 2010, or we can start going door to door with Mozilla or Opera CDs, volunteering to help our neighbors install them. If anyone has another idea, I'm open.

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Seamus Posted…

If Internet Explorer stops advancing, I think within a year or two for every website that I make I will have to make a choice to support IE6 or not. Microsoft has not left many options if they do not work on IE. Yes I know that 95% of users use IE, but maybe if enough people start upgrading because websites do not work well with it MS will do something.

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Lon Posted…

get real guys... why would any normal user want to upgrade their browser? IE6 is perfect! It does all websites and flash. In fact: I even didn't know you could install browsers... aren't they part of windows? It was already there when I opened the box the PC came in, so why would I install a new one? IE's market share will not decline substantially within the next couple of years. No way. My professional opinion is comparable: I see almost no reasons for IE7. Oh sure, I'd like MSXML4 and SVG to be in it by default. But I'm happy with IE6's (D)HTML, JS, CSS, performance, stability. Sure Mozilla has a few minor advantages, but IE has some others I like better. I think Microsoft is doing the right thing in integrating the browser even further into the system. I used to think differently, but let's face it: a browser is basically just a rendering engine and it's in all our interest if large parts of your OS are rendered by it. That way we, webdevelopers, can plug our stuff seamlessly into the system. Just today Sjoerd Visscher (a collegue of mine) told me MSN Messenger 6 has an XML config file and you can create your own 'tabs' in it, pointing to some URL which will then be displayed inside of Messenger. Now, isn't that sweet? Let's stop speculating on the death of IE and look forward to the possibilities a truely integrated browser offers to us.

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Andreas Posted…

Lon. I am afraid I have to agree with your first paragraph. Users won't upgrade to another browser easily. Except maybe, when that other browser offers enough substantial advantages over IE5/6 (other than good support for webstandards). Think about tabs, xul, speed, tweaking, etc. However: >I think Microsoft is doing the right >thing in integrating the browser even >further into the system. Huh? As you say, a browser is basically just a rendering engine. From a "rendering" point of view, there's no need for integration within the OS, as far as I can see. The reason (or one of the reasons) Microsoft wants to integrate its browser in the Windows OS even more, has to be found in its questionable NGSCB project, I think. Which, in his turn, will even have more severe implications on webdesign and especially content production and retrieval. About the MSN6 tabs: I tried them and don't quite get the sweetness of this function, I must say. >look forward to the possibilities >a truely integrated browser offers >to us. Do you mean "nifty" stuff like this? ;-)

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Joshua Kaufman Posted…

AOL may let Netscape die, but developers will not let the Mozilla project die. If IE really won't be updated until the next OS release, this is an excellent opportunity for Mozilla browsers to shine. On the other hand, I find it sickening that IE may not be updated until the next OS release. I simply don't understand how the maker of the most popular browser could let so many developers and users down. So I created IE 6 CSS Bugs on This Website. I encourage other web designers and developers to join in and add a similar note on their websites.

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Darrel Posted…

I think the AOL deal has little to do with anything other than, with a bit of luck, the extra cash may keep the Netscape group rolling and finally get Mozilla into the PC AOL engine. As for MS not updating IE, well, is that really news? IE/Mac has been dead for years and IE6 has been around for how long? To be fair, I don't expect MS to update IE. Why should they? They won the market share. They won. With the inferior product. A product that makes them no money. Why should they update it? Yes, we monopolized the market. Yes we competed unfairly by releasing free products to compete with independant commercial product. Yes, now that we one we have no interest in updating the product now. Yes, you took us to court. No, it really had no affect on us...see...now we're putting IE back into the OS! Bwahahahahahahahahahahaha! Long live Microsoft! *sigh* On the plus side, Germany's government just dumped MS for Linux. ;o) Another thing to note, is the recent release of MSN for Mac, which brings an undate to Internet Explorer for Mac, I believe it's an incredibly small update, isn't it? Most people are saying that IE for the Mac is dead, though I suppose they may keep it around for MSN. I can't see MS wanting to compete on the same grounds that they do (ie, trying to compete with a browser that comes with the OS...Safari). I think Microsoft is doing the right thing in integrating the browser even further into the system. Lon, I don't get your example. The OS shouldn't be rendered by a browser or any sort of html/xml rendering engine. That should be done in the most efficient, lease restrictive, and unobtrusive way...namely without a need for various 'rendering layers' of application code. The integration with the OS is nothing more than MS pushing users around. I, for one, am sick and tired of OS-specific browsers. I use a Mac, I use a PC, and I use Linux. Although, I am slowly trying to stay further and further away from the PC as more and more 'PC' solutions seem focused on IE and MS Office-centric. Ugh.

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Ben Posted…

Whilst I agree with Lon on a purely cynical level (Internet Explorer 6 does all your "average" web browsing user needs it to) I disagree that the ways it needs to advance are in any way trivial or minor.

IE's rise to the fore came about as a result of Microsoft's need to have a decent product in the face of superior competition with a pre-existing marketshare majority. As soon as MS had ousted Netscape as the preferred browser of the ignorant (basically, once most new PCs Windows came with IE5+ preinstalled and ISP installer disks installed it rather than Netscape 4), their work was done. You could say that supporting standards has only ever been part of the Microsoft strategy so long as it supported the longer-term strategy of gaining market superiority.

Still, the reasons for implenting standards compliance and advanced W3C specs also included making life easier for us - the developers. As any software/hardware platform creator will tell you, making your platform accessible to developers is crucial in getting people to support it. That in mind, IE's development is only frozen so long as us - the developers - continue to work pragmatically and don't demand improvements and change. This is why movements like the PNG Support Petition are vital if we are not to see the worst fears mentioned above realised.

So perhaps what is needed now, more than ever, is a bit more "grassroots activism" promoting alternative browsers. Jarred came up with an interesting idea about mailing CDs containing Phoenix/Mozilla/Opera to random people in the hope that some of them would use the other browsers and make the logical switch. I've commented further that maybe this sort of thing could be achieved, if a large number of people were to participate. That said, I'm sure there are other (better) ways of spreading the word, what other ideas do people have?

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Darrel Posted…

The reality is people switch when they have a real, compelling reason to do so. So, sending CDs or pointing them to Mozilla.org isn't really going to do anything. I'm a web developer and even I take my sweet time upgrading my software even though I *know* there are new features in the new software that would benefit me. I've been bitching about Spam for months now, and I KNOW that Eudora 6 has spam filtering, yet I just haven't gotten around to upgrading from Eudora 5 yet. My mom sure as hell isn't about to upgrade her browser just because some people say it isn't standards-compatible ;o) Apparently, it's a known fact that IE has problems with MS Proxy servers (apparently the problem I have at the office). Even THAT isn't an incentive to switch here. I think the solution is to spread a virus. Everyone gets viruses. This virus would install Mozilla in the background, and set the default browser to Mozilla. Problem solved! We'd have every PC user using Mozilla within a week!

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Dave S. Posted…

Darrell's talking the most sense here, except for the tongue-in-cheek bit about virii. Browsers are only going to be sold on features, not standards support. No matter how easy the latest technology makes our lives, people won't upgrade until they have a reason. Here's the idea. Direct everyone you know to Opera or Firebird when they complain about pop-up windows. You'll be surprised at how many people make the switch based on that feature alone.

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liorean Posted…

Anyone thought of the fact that you could use the Mozilla ActiveX control inside IE if you really wanted to do something radical? - Mozilla ActiveX Control - A Slideshow on the control Also, this would be a nice project, did anyone take him up on it: ActiveX Mozilla Installer for Internet Explorer/Windows Migration

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Dan Rubin Posted…

OK, I have a plan: Public Relations. We (designers) need to get the word out about our opinions, and find a way to get it out to the uninformed masses. The Browser Upgrade Campaign was nice, but it was not (IMO) agressive enough, and the situation is somewhat more dire at the moment. I propose a combination of a simple web site with links and brain-dead instructions on how to update your browser, combined with a few well-written press releases (and maybe some arm-twisting to get some articles written), and a whole lotta linkage. We are going to have to make some noise if we have any hope of being heard. Will it work? Perhaps, but that's not my primary concern. What it needs to do is (somehow) make the average user aware that there is a problem, and that it is easy for them to help with the solution. As Darrel pointed out, users need to have a reason why they should upgrade, and sometimes even "good" reasons aren't enough, so short of spreading a standards-complient virus (if only it were that easy...) the best thing we can do is spread the word -- not in that Microsoft-hating way which always gets swept under the rug, but by educating the average user on the benefits (pop-up blocking and others) which an average user will appreciate. If we give them enough practical reasons, it might do the trick. The catch is that unless there is overwhelming support from the design and development community, it won't be news -- I don't think a petition is going to cut it either... Thoughts?

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Joshua Kaufman Posted…

Dan, I'm all for grassroots campaigns! Your thoughts are along the same line as mine when I was writing this, but after reading your comment, I think it needs to be more to the point. [Update by Joshua: text removed to focus the discussion]

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Dave S. Posted…

Okay, slow down guys. You're talking good ideas, but do not run this like WaSP's Browser Upgrade Campaign. The user shouldn't be told they're running a broken browser, because the BUC just got them to upgrade to it! IE6 was in the list of browsers. If we turn around and tell them again that they need to upgrade, credibility is destroyed. Screw the developers, they'll think, they'll never be happy with their own recommendations! What happens if in 3 or 4 years, we have to do this again to get people off Mozilla 1.x? Plan for the future here. There's a right way and a wrong way. Don't show notices selectively to IE users. Don't list bugs and tell them why their browser sucks. Don't do anything to undermine what the BUC accomplished. If you try to convince them that IE6 is bad, you will completely destroy what the WaSP has done. Instead, this should be approached like a marketing campaign. Hell, it should be a marketing campaign. Lure visitors to the domain with ads for features. Give them reasons that benefit them, not us. "Sick of pop-up windows? Here's the answer." "Are you getting the most out of your browser?" "See the web the way it's meant to be seen!" Approach this constructively, not destructively, and you will stand a far better chance of succeeding.

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Joshua Kaufman Posted…

Dave, Excellent points. I think you're absolutely right. A constructive project is always more likely to succeed! So what's next? Zeldman?

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Darrel Posted…

I like Dan's idea. We all need to start putting ungodly amounts of pop-up windows on every site we design. Soon enough, we'll get some people switching based on features...namely the pop-up blocker that almost all other browsers now have. ;o) Josh: Keep in mind that a lot of web developers LIKE IE6. It's actually quite robust in terms of windows-centric features. If you are a windows developer, you tend to really like the hooks that IE6 has.

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Dave S. Posted…

My further-clarified thoughts posted.

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Dan Rubin Posted…

Josh: Good additions, but I'm leaning more towards Dave's comments, for the following reasons:

I don't think IE is "bad", just not "great"

Undermining the WaSP's BAC is not what I have in mind

Dave's idea of marketing to regular browser users is dead on

We need to make sure this effort is not confused with the BAC: two different purposes here

We will get more support if we're not bashing IE -- I'm even in favor of pushing users to upgrade from IE 5.x or earlier to IE 6, since that will help somewhat

If the goals are to make life easier for developers, as well as improving the browsing experience for users, then we cannot afford to be completely biased from a developer point of view. IE 6 has fewer bugs than IE 5 or 5.5 (or before), and getting users to simply update would be a big step forward, and it will be easier to convince users to move to a newer version of IE than to trust another browser altogether. Also, from a user experience perspective, switching browsers is not completely straight forward: Netscape/Mozilla (and the others) work a little differently from IE, and that can be a turn-off -- we don't want users deciding to switch because we've successfully argued our point, only to become frustrated with their new browser not working "the old way." What would be great is to somehow gain support from many designers and companies who are willing to help: Imagine getting custom browser upgrade CD's donated by 5Inch.com, to be distributed (as blanks) to a select group of volunteers (web developers) around the country/world, who will coordinate an effort to burn and mail CD's with the latest versions of all browsers, for any platform, to those who request it! That would fix the "56k-and-slower-unwillingness-to-upgrade-problem" and would be another great PR opportunity (a world-wide cooporative effort to aid low-bandwidth users -- there has to be some reporter at CNet who will pick this one up!) and a chance to get some funding donated for banner ads, etc. I'll make the first required-resource donation: domain registration (big deal, huh) as well as server space and bandwidth (OS X Server, FTP access for the eventual team of developers) in addition to design and communication. There's probably more I can do, but I would be an idiot to volunteer for everything at once :-) Email me ideas (Josh, Dave, etc.) on campaign names/domains; I have a few in mind already...

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Andreas Posted…

If we're talking about marketing, here's a (wel known) list of Mozilla features in case there's need for constructive non-IE6-bashing arguments. This Mozilla Firebird article does a good job, too. Anybody other tips (Safari, Opera, ...)?

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Nate Posted…

The Safari homepage does a good job of pointing out the benifits of using it: http://www.apple.com/safari/.

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Darrel Posted…

If the goals are to make life easier for developers, ...then there is no point preaching to the users. They couldn't care less about how easy our lives are. as well as improving the browsing experience for users, Well, it's going to be an incredibly hard sell to convince a user that taking the time to install and use a different browser is going to improve their 'browsing experience' let alone even having them care about their 'browsing experience' in the first place. Remember that most average ma and pa computer users really don't like installing software on their already fragile machines that they've managed to keep running with Windows 98 on a pentium II for these past 4 years. If you want to go after someone, go after the large orgs that have standardized on IE as the desktop standard. Getting into large companies is what will slowly bring the other browsers into the picture more vividly.

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resonance Posted…

Synthesizing from many excellent points above: Ultimately, like Dave S., I don't think an overtly "negative" campaign against Microsoft will do anyone much good. I mean--the U.S. government tried an all-out-assault for years and Microsoft walked away with barely a scratch. MS has clearly not changed its monopoly strategy, as IE is once again leading the charge into an Microsoft-dominated web. Our Achilles' heel is this: unawareness. Keep in mind that to many people--people in business included--IE is already part of their operating system. This isn't necessarily a result of ignorance--just unawareness. There are people out there (again, in the business world as well) who don't even know what Mozilla is, quite simply because they've never needed to. I believe that these people are the majority of web surfers. It's these people that need to be made aware and I think that designers (and those on the 'personal' side of web development (i.e. bloggers)) who are aware are in a unique position to educate (not intimidate) the masses. I'd like to throw the following idea into the mix of strategies already mentioned: 1) A 'standardized' page which very strikingly and succinctly informs a visitor to a website that this recent decision is a problem for the web as we know it. This page need not be Microsoft-bashing; it merely has to present a very simple issue and links (or preferably a single link) to more information. Code and graphics for this page should be made widely available and/or hosted on as many bandwidth-donating servers as possible. 2) A campaign to make the aforementioned standard page the 'splash' page on weblogs, designer's sites, and politically-minded institutional/business sites (CS departments, computer user groups, law firms, libraries, government agencies in Europe, college radio stations, media outlets (err...FCC decision, anyone?) etc.). The splash should only appear once (set a cookie to skip the splash screen on future visits), it should redirect to the normal entry page after a reasonable period of time (also providing a 'go there now' link, of course), and it should be made clear that the page is not an advertisement and that they'll only see the page once. 3) Before this page is created, certain resources should be in place. Obviously, this includes an informational website, but also a relatively concrete plan. Should the government be involved (again)? How might we convince MS to shift their browser strategy towards one that's better for everyone? This is kind of like 'a day without art' but in reality our awareness campaign is 'a web without choices'. And it's just an idea, so those who disagree vehemently should keep it civil and constructive. Forgive me if the above is incoherent. I'm heavily medicated for a back problem right now.

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Richard Posted…

A hell of a lot of people upgraded to IE 6.0. That means that a Hell of a lot of people could be convinced to 'upgrade' to a better, faster more secure browser. Like Firebird. I think this - the 'death' of IE, and yes folks that is what it is - is a fanstastic oppurtunity for the open source community. Of course IE is dead. I suspect a great many consumers will not be so keen to buy a new OS just top get a browser security upgrade.

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Sunny Posted…

Yeah, all of this good thinking by the smart folks at AOL will only succeed if AOL lasts for another seven years... Lets not forget that the AOL-Time-Warner merger was seen as a smart, logical move at first.

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Seamus Posted…

If we can get the users to upgrade their browsers, how do we get websites to upgrade their code?

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Brad Posted…

I'm not a developer, but a techie with an interest. This may not be as smart as I think it is, but an easy target for a campaign of sorts seems to be the bloggers. There are tons of kids and even adults who are jumping into coding their own pages and are probably learning lessons about browser support/bugs real quick. It's a group of folks that tend to be pretty vocal anyway....Even amongst the 'diaryland.com' type folks there's a lot of folks who wouldn't mind giving MSOFT a piece of their mind, and seems like a natural fit to lead any kind of charge for a switch to mozilla etc.

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stylo~ Posted…

Great! After struggling for days with a css design in ie that works perfectly in moz/opera as it should, I just recently decided to add a discreet message to my footer for ie users. (And ie6 has more annoying css bugs than ie5.5 as far as I can see, so please don't recommend "upgrading" to ie6.) Control of your surfing is a major theme, I think, and quality/luxury (as mezzoblue indicates on his site), in the fact that ie hasn't really been updated much at all since ie5 many years ago and severely lags behind now. Surf the way you want, without annoyances, and view the best possible web by using the latest technology. Pop-ups, tabs, typeahead (once used you can't go back). Screenshots of other browser features so people see what they are missing. Contrast the release date of ie5 and ie's statement of no new updates with the constant development and cool stuff at moz/opera/etc. IE is an old hamburger with a couple new pickles, but there's free filet mignon out there. But also explain some ugly ie bugs and problems they cause lower down on the info page or they will be suspicious of your motives. When I recommended a better browser and told visitors to my site that their ns4 browser was really old and had over 500 layout bugs which cause tons of extra work and makes the page slower for everyone to load, they said they had no idea. I'm sure they're happy I recommended something better for both of us, though of course happier for themselves now, no doubt. I have real doubts about Wasp involvement here. Undermine what BUC campaign or credibility?? They completely wimped out, gained nothing, and lost credibility with developers in using a quiet, back-door approach with ie last time, and in praising the ie6 release. (E.g., not even a public list of simple expected css enhancements before release; no evaluation against a list after. Really pathetic.) I do think the invasive redirect approach was silly, though, and the issue is better served with a positive incentive note at the page footer. -"Look what you're missing" and such. But I don't know that an official domain and campaign is even needed; maybe better to just send people to your browser page of choice. Mozilla: http://mozilla.org/projects/phoenix/why/ Safari: http://www.apple.com/safari/ Opera: http://www.opera.com/whyopera/ What could be done jointly is: 1) promoting the whole idea. 2) the blurbs/teasers to put on your page. Swap them around. But my notices will certainly be going to ie users only as I barely have any complaints with opera or mozilla right now, and wouldn't know what else to recommend to them anyway.

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stylo~ Posted…

OK, here's goes the first blow, which I've added to my site: CSS: div[class~=bestweb]{ display:none; } HTML: [div class="yourNormalClass bestweb"]Are you getting the best possible web? [a href="http://mozilla.org/projects/phoenix/why/" title="Find out for yourself"]Look what you're missing![/a][/div] Of course, modify the blurb/link/title as desired. This displays in all except Opera 7, Konquerer (so I assume Safari), and Mozilla. (For a different combination, see http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Eppk/css2tests/) -The fun part is you get to use a cool standard to point out the lack of standards in some browsers :-)

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Darrel Posted…

There still seems to be a lack of understanding in terms of user behavior. None of these arguments are of any relevance to the mass of web browsing folks out there. If you really want people to stop using IE, you'll need to get rid of Windows first.

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Craig Grannell Posted…

Maybe it's time Apple got its head out of its butt and started looking seriously at Windows. This would seem to be the ideal time to port Safari - a robust, capable browser that has a tiny footprint, at least compared to Mozilla... Of course, Apple won't do this and Safari will end up keeping its 0.5% marketshare...

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Darrel Posted…

Why would a company like apple spend money and effort porting an application that doesn't bring in any direct income to compete on a platform that already has an integrated, widely used and accepted-by-the-masses web browser? (Though note that many people would tell you that there is a WinTel version of OSX already built, so maybe it's not that unfeasible of an idea.)

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Nate Posted…

All participants in this post (and readers).. please take a moment to check out zeldman's response to the concepts of activism: find it here.

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Jeremy Flint Posted…

ZDNet UK has an article about this saying that some at MS thing that Countryman may have misspoken or spoken too soon. read the article here

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Donimo Posted…

If Opera Safari Mozilla want the average Joe to load their browsers onto their machines and use it instead of IE there is only one obvious solution. Free CD. If they would get together on it and include not only their browsers, but some paid for advertising for "bonus" software ( . . .but wait, there's more! kind of thing . . .) that could offset the costs of production and distribution, then people would try it. Most folks don't trust their own ability to download and install. They trust in their ability to put the CD in the tray and click the link that says "Install." Look what AOL achieved by flooding the land with free CD's.

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stylo~ Posted…

Hmm, Zeldman doesn't make very good arguments. 1 "Nor is IE6/Win a bad browser, in spite of its lack of support for PNG transparency and its shortcomings with regard to CSS float and adjacent sibling selectors." -Because it's better than NS4 you shouldn't do anything? Sure compared to an antique it's great, but compared to all other major browsers it is terrible, as bad as NS4 ito IE6. IE is the new NS4. But it's no more "an anti-IE campaign" than earlier efforts were anti-NS4. It's about keeping people moving towards the best browsers. Any browser that can read div[class~=bestweb]{display:none;} doesn't get the helpful hint. Or lower the threshhold as desired. 2) "developers could see which way the wind was blowing: it was blowing toward new browsers and away from old ones. No such wind is blowing against IE/Windows." -The goal is improvement of browsers used, not elimination of IE. No one thinks IE is going to disappear, but a "wind" has already begun blowing because the competition is so vastly superior now and continually gaining. Developers are very angry and MS clearly just doesn't care. We truly thought MS was going to improve the browser over time, but IE6 "enhancements" were a cruel joke, and now they want to leave it at that? There are better options. 2. "Consumers don’t care about browsers." -Then they don't care what your site looks like, or about popups, or ever upgrading programs, or how they spend hours a day. Why did anyone upgrade from NS4? It wasn't the Browser Upgrade Campaign that drove it down to a few points, it was the experience of using IE which was much better (and installed). And compared to IE now, most people are delighted when trying Firebird/Opera/Safari/etc. and blocking popups and using tabs and so forth. It's impossible to go back. As one of my visitors said, "I had no idea." It's simply a matter of experiencing something better. People don't know how much better the alternatives are now. 3. "If they did, and if persuasion in this sector was effective, Opera and Netscape would advertise heavily and gain market share." -no, they don't spend money because they don't see how to make a lot of money off of people using the browser. For example, when NS piles advertising into the browser and doesn't block AOL popups, people switch to Mozilla because they know a better alternative. In any case, this isn't about a company marketing a product, this is a site offering sincere advice to its visitors. You listen to your friend's recommendations don't you? 4) "spend our energy" -Are you really arguing against educating people on this issue at all? Of course most won't change, but is that an argument against adding a small note to your site to inform your visitors of what they are missing? No real effort is required. Imagine further when people start seeing that on blogs and sites everywhere. People take note. -Google takes note. Hell, maybe even MS will. In the meantime, put all your css hacks in a separate file, overcome some IE css shortcoming via js (min-max, etc.), and then only poor browsers are burdened with the extra weight and you can remove those hacks easily in the future. Shouldn't your site look just a bit better in the best browsers anyway? 5) "fostering a climate in which designers and developers felt freer to explore and use CSS layout, XHTML, and DOM-based scripts, which are the staples of modern web design." -exactly. But even IE6, let alone IE5 or Omniweb, has hideous css bugs and shortcomings as everyone knows, really worse than IE5.5 in many ways. So help yourself by helping people know how superior the other options are now. The basic misconception here, I think, is that this is a campaign to gear up for, with a committee and a domain and great energy expended. It's not, it's simply continuing education amongst friends. Ask yourself: Are you happy with browsers that cause 75% of your work load and do you want to inform your visitors about better options? If yes, that's all you need to start today. If not, stop complaining.

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Darrel Posted…

IE there is only one obvious solution. Free CD. How many times have you installed AOL? It's not that people can't GET the browsers, it's just that they see no REASON to spend time installing new software, moving bookmarks, getting used to a new interface, etc. Look what AOL achieved by flooding the land with free CD’s. Getting on the internet is a bit more compelling of a need that what browser you might be using. In the end, AOL did get a few people to sign up, but look at percentages...I think every US citizen got 10+ disks from them. Because it’s better than NS4 you shouldn’t do anything? You are all missing the concept of 'good enough'. For most users, IE6 is plenty 'good enough'. Remember, 'better' doesn't usually win in the market. All you typically need is 'good enough'.

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stylo~ Posted…

>>You are all missing the concept of ‘good enough’. For most users, IE6 is plenty ‘good enough’. So be it (though the same was said of NS4). The idea isn't to eradicate old browsers, but just to keep things moving in the right direction by offering sincere expert advice to your friends: your site visitors. That means no marketing campaigns with shiny buttons and slogans to avoid, just your advice. You recommend links and books and whatever else on your site, so why not a better browser if you feel there is one?

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Donimo Posted…

How many times have you installed AOL? More times than I would feel comfortable admiting publicly. : ) There was a time not to long ago when the driving force for mass participation in discovering the Web was curiosity. Ingenious planning and hard work are appropriate but markets move in unexpected ways once bordem sets in. Is anybody really missing anything by not using IE? Maybe that IS the real question. The answer probably is, not. And bordem will surely set in and time will pass. And Web Makers will be busy making Webs instead of shaping browser market shares. I still want my Free CD, though. Dammit. ; )

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Donimo Posted…

Sorry, that should have read : Is anybody really missing anything by ONLY using IE?

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stylo~ Posted…

>>Is anybody really missing anything by ONLY using IE? You clearly haven't used Firebird for a week then tried to go back. You're missing: a whole lot of enjoyable surfing.

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Donimo Posted…

Does it come on a Free CD? Kidding, of course. Actually, I love it and think it should be included on my Free CD. Oops, I keep saying that. Free CD! Free CD! Free CD! Oh, Darn.

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CirTap Posted…

Hi y'all. Just stumbled over this nice site and this nice discussion... Marketing, hum? Well, yeah, but for what? Features? What features? Many people I know, aren't even aware they can bookmark a page! "What does Favorites mean?" Typeahead? Yes, I use it, because I can type and watch my screen -- They don't know that typeahead exists, because they never saw it in action! They are struggling with this weired order of letters on their keybords. We're talking about DAUs, folks! People that have a computer because everybody has one, with "MS Works 2002" preinstalled. Now the can print their letters and greeting cards in Technicolor with 15 different fonts. Cool! Hey, and now they can go to the Internet! They surf, They mail, They can do this, because someone that knows computers installed their modem, setup the mail account ("What's this 'pop' and 'es em te pe' stuff?") and adjusted some browser settings for them. People like you and me made it possible so they can surf and mail finally and They're happy if They discoverd Google all alone and had their first succesful search results. Jesus, the know eBay by heart, yes!, but the don't care for CSS, XHTML and standards (standards mean burocracy, right?). They're wondering about that "golden lock" that sometimes appears. They're clicking away whatever "so informational" dialogbox is willing to warn them about...

"There was this funny message I didn't understand, so I clicked OK."

You guys know those boxes: the one that looks like the Hardware-Assistant, the one that looks like an Installer, the one that installs another bloody ActiveX! For Them, they all look alike. You want people to update? How 'bout SECURITY... no word on that so far. What does people scare? The probable lost of their "work" -- and their money: The huge phone-bill caused by that other porn-dialer they recently "installed" with a single click in MSIE, the new mail-virus/trojan they received with their familiar Outlook [Express] because the preview pane was active. Take it: They don't understand what's happening on/with/at their computers, and They don't understand what it's "telling" them and the don't update their browser. Tell 'em they can get rid of all this real trouble by installing another safe(r) mail client or browser, will they do so? They just added all their friends to the address book of OE6 (or AOL7 for sake), why switch? To learn another app They don't understand either? To type all this stuff in again? Who migrates? What about their old mails? Anger, fear, trouble. They won't update for they're too lazy. I tried this switch numberous times with Eudora, Notes R5/PE, Mozilla, Netscape, you name it. The next time I came back, there was MSIE and OE running -- and another porn-dialer, and another mail-virus. They called me to fix their PC... I doubt, that any of the excellent ideas, campains, websites (in english only of course, as the other 100+ languages/countries don't bother anyone here) mentioned here and you're all willing to "promote" will have any effect at all. The BUC was a nice idea, but do you think, that any non-english website owner/creator sent their visitors to webstandards.org? And guess what: there are another 170+ countries on this very planet, whith a couple of people living there, that don't know English at all. And they surf the web, too. BUC wasn't a success due to visitors sent over there by site owners/webmasters. The browsers evolved, like every software doesl. People bought new computers with new browsers installed. This is what happened. Netscape didn't care of BUC, if they did, there would have been a real "Mozilla/5.0". Take it real. And AOL - who cares about AOL? There are thousands of other ISPs (in the other countries) spreading IE6 with *Free CDs* bundled with their "Internet by Call" access (no monthly fee) as they did a couple of years before but with NS4.03 -- their clients still use what came with their original OS, no SP1, no SP2, and for sure no major version number changed since then. You'll find them in your logfiles. Opera? Safari? Nice and compliant. I'ver never seen one on any end user's desktop, and end users are not involved in webdesign or IT. They don't update and they don't switch. Disable popups? Interesting argument. 10% of my visitors are Mozilla or some % of other minorities. It appers that +80% struggle with popups in IE, but they stick to it. Users won't care because they're either afraid or too lazy to update, and they will keep IE6 or whatever they have until they need a new computer and get the improved IE with the improved OS. That's how the really "upgrade" and not because they downloaded 60megs or installed one of the many available on computer magazine CDs, which often contain all three: IE, NS and OP... In fact I upgraded most of the machines I had to put my hands on to the most recent version available at that time. Blame me for a few dozen IE6 more ;-) Welcome to the real world. Have fun, CirTap

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yenist Posted…

very good. microsoft is popular, but to easy hacked ourself. let's see their FALL-NERD-abilities.